Not Your Average Investor Show
Not Your Average Investor Show
“Greedy when people are fearful, and fearful when people are greedy.” - A Playbook For Real Estate Investors Right Now
Real estate is going through a moment where following Warren Buffet’s famous advice about buying in a down market has never been more applicable (and less risky!), but neither prices not interests are down- demand is.
That’s why we are hosting a conversation on how to “buy the demand dip”, lock in equity, and increase cash flow after.
This is a special edition of the Not Your Average Investor Show where the co-founder of JWB Real Estate Capital, Gregg Cohen, president of Patriot Home Funding, John Seybert, and the show’s host, Pablo Gonzalez, will lay out the formula that makes this advanced real estate play work.
They’ll discuss:
- What you can learn from historical trends showing the relationship between periods of elevated interest rates, and what happens to home prices immediately after
- How real numbers look for rental homes returns today, how they could improve when rates drop, what it would cost to refinance, and how that supercharges your returns
- Which American market provides the best risk-adjusted return for this strategy for passive investors
Moments like these are the ones investors look back on in ten years, see how obvious it was to see coming, and feel the envy of everyone that didn’t take action on this data.
JOIN US for this webinar, and at the very least become the most interesting person at your next dinner party.
* You don’t need to be a real estate professional with a bunch of cash laying around to take advantage of this strategy.
Gregg Cohen co-founded JWB Real Estate Capital 17 years ago. Since then, they have become the class of the turnkey rental property investing space- serving over 2,000 investors, managing over 6,000 rental properties, and being featured on the front page of the Wall Street Journal (twice).
As president of Patriot Home Funding, John Seybert has had the opportunity to assist more than 7500 families and individuals obtain the dream of home ownership over his 38 year career.
Join our real estate investor community LIVE:
https://jwbrealestatecapital.com/nyai/
Schedule a Turnkey strategy call:
https://jwbrealestatecapital.com/turnkey/
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We are talking today about the age old adage that we'd like to always quote Warren Buffett on of being. fearful when people are greedy, but more importantly being greedy when people are fearful. And the fact that right now we're in this moment of fear, there's an opportunity to make intelligent decisions that are going to set you up for a bright future. And we're going to connect the dots on exactly how to do that. Welcome. Welcome. I told you I was about to do right. Welcome everybody to a very special edition of the Not Your Average Investor show. I am your host, Pablo Gonzalez. With me as always, the guy that I affectionately like to call GC because he's got the genius concepts because he knows how to generate cashflow because he's a great co host and because his name is Greg Cohen. Say hello, Greg. Hello everybody. Great to be with you. And our guest of honor today, the expert in the playbook on taking advantage of this opportunity today. He is the do you call yourself the president of Patriot Home Funding? The president of Patriot Home Funding. He's the co founder. He's not just a mortgage broker folks. He's a business owner that Can do really, really interesting things. Also highly, highly educated works closely with real estate investors, my personal mortgage provider, and also a strategic partner to JWB in many, many, many, many, many deals. Because there isn't a lot of people that understand the space from your perspective, the way that they do. John Sieber. Welcome to the show, my friend. Thanks, Bob. Oh,
John Seybert:yeah. Thanks, Greg.
Pablo Gonzalez:Good to have you,
John Seybert:buddy.
Pablo Gonzalez:Good to have you on. And we want to welcome you if you are joining us because John invited you. We're pumped that you're here. We're doing this as a special edition of a live podcast that we do in this studio every single Tuesday, 1230 to one 30. You can also find it on podcasts. You can also find it on YouTube. It's called the not your average investor show. So if you want to get really, really educated on rental property, investing on different ways to save for retirement that are more effective than The average results that Americans are getting these days, or if you just want a really, really deep edge into the Jacksonville real estate economy this is a place to be. And it is also a great place to meet other great investors and not your average investor themselves, which we always welcome as a tradition on our show called what GC, the roll call roll call, baby. We got our community manager. Kicking us off today, Joanna in the house. If you need anything from her, just chat away. We got the ringmaster in the house,
Gregg Cohen:Drew Barnhill,
Pablo Gonzalez:Drew Barnhill, regular on the show. We got from the Inland Empire, another regular on our show. We got the grand amigo,
Gregg Cohen:GC, Bill
Pablo Gonzalez:Shields. Good to have you Bill Shields in the house. I love you all. coming here, you know, like we, we, we take the, the community very, very seriously. And everybody that shows up for us, this is a special webinar for new friends and old friends as well. But let's talk about the subject du jour. That means the subject of the day, John, in case, in French, Reggie knows. And it's this idea of when we're talking about being greedy, when people are fearful, we're not actually talking about being greedy. We're talking about being smart. And you know, that's a, it's kind of an uncommon practice. What's going on right now is we have had this like historic run of. Real estate appreciation where investors have done very, very well. It's also coincided with a period of low interest rates, right? Which provide a great circumstance. And then for the last year and a half, we've been in this period of very, very high interest rates uncommon for the last 17 years or so which has scared people off. But as we have discussed over and over again on the show, our community is well versed in this. Based on the actions that they've been taking is the idea that while most people, the average investor is sitting on the sidelines with the rest of this pent up demand thinking, you know, I want to wait till mortgage rates drop because then I'm going to get better cash flow. I want to have this better interest rate. What we've been telling folks is that if you look at historical trends, when rates drop, there is this bump in home price appreciations. And if you can buy ahead of the drop, then you can lock in this lower price. You can lock in this inherent appreciation that's going to happen. And then all you got to do afterwards is refinance and go back down to that lower rate. And you're going to be much better off. So we're going to explain all that stuff in greater detail. But for one, John, you know, you are well versed in this real estate space. You're dealing with real estate investors and retail buyers alike all the time. What is, from your perspective, what's the climate on this like high interest rate environment? Are people aware of this thing that we're about to talk about? Are you having these conversations?
John Seybert:With most every investor that I talked to. Yeah. Um, and I like to use an acronym called ACES, A C E S coined by my business partner, Pierce Outlaw and co founder. ACES, accumulation, cashflow, equity, and shelter, tax shelter.
Pablo Gonzalez:Okay.
John Seybert:So these are four crucial characteristics ingredients for the investor to consider, uh, when getting into buying rental property. I think we're in a Unique situation now with the 10 year treasury dropping below 4 percent this morning.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah.
John Seybert:And the Fed talking about dropping rates. September, possibly. In September, right? Hinting. Um, which, it's already happening. So it's, when people see that happening in September, if it does, it's, it's baked into the rate right now. So they're ahead of the game. The markets are figuring that out already and going, okay, let's start playing this game now and dropping the 10 year treasury and rates are dropping as you guys are noticing with, with the people that we're working with on a daily basis. So, you know, talking about, I want to touch on the appreciation piece that you talked about. I've been working with you guys for 14 years, I think now.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah.
John Seybert:And, the years that went, rates went down to the three and a half range, two and a half, two and three quarter, three and a half range a couple of years ago. I had more people from JWB clientele, From 2017 and 18, call me up to talk about refinancing,
Pablo Gonzalez:right?
John Seybert:The rental properties.
Pablo Gonzalez:Mm-Hmm,
John Seybert:And I said, well, let's look at it. So I pull up their file. They bought a house for 145,000 in 2017.
Pablo Gonzalez:Mm-Hmm,
John Seybert:And I have a valuation tool in my computer where I can plug in the address and find out, give an idea what the value is today,
Pablo Gonzalez:right?
John Seybert:And they were surprised that, you know, 145, 000 house in 17 is now worth 250, 000. Right. And so many of them came back. And a matter of fact, I got mass marketed after I saw that. I go, wait a minute. There's an opportunity for them, obviously selfishly for me. Sure. So, we probably did in that year, probably 60 or 70 cash out refinances. And these folks would take out their equity. Turn around, buy more.
Pablo Gonzalez:Mm-Hmm,
John Seybert:At, at a price that was probably in 2021 at 1 92 20 that are probably now worth two 50. Two 60, right. So the appreciation piece is not stopping here in in Jacksonville. It, I've seen it, I've lived it, so I know it's gonna continue. And with rates going down we're, we're in a perfect storm situation here. The prices are holding steady rates come down, the buying power increases. cashflow gets better. It's just a, it's a win win for all parties.
Pablo Gonzalez:Love it. Do you see when you, that's a new acronym ACES.
Gregg Cohen:You know, I wrote it down. I love it. Yeah. And you know, we didn't even mention his business partner's last name is Outlaw. So when I hear that somebody with the last name of Outlaw tells me something about aces, I'm following that. That's all. That's why I wrote that one down.
Pablo Gonzalez:So we're, we're pretty used to The five profit centers here of rental property investing, right? Like we, we explained it as, home price, appreciation, cashflow, tax savings debt pay down and inflation hedging. I've never heard of accumulation. What is accumulation? The AACs is
John Seybert:accumulating property.
Okay.
John Seybert:Oh, and then that's where I came in with the appreciation piece and refinancing cash out refinancing accumulate more. So
Pablo Gonzalez:yeah. Got it. The port, the real estate portfolio that you guys like to help people. Absolutely.
Gregg Cohen:Right.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah. Got it. Okay. Cool. Well, then let's get into it, right? The way that I, the way if I was to break it down back in this this ACES side of it, this idea of high mortgage rates where it's affecting the, the seat, right? It's affecting the, the cashflow when people are buying right now, GC for anybody who is obviously not your average investor show community members, you know, GC, well, if you're here, you're a friend of John's that he invited to, to the show. Greg and his company JWB are, um, I'm just going to say, I have a huge man crush on Greg and like everything that they've accomplished, but basically they are, they, they have proven themselves to be one of the best in the world at bringing forth cash flowing rental income properties for people that aren't everyday real estate investors. Like myself, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a busy, I'm a really busy person. And there's no way that I'm going to get into the. Real estate investing game, unless it can be completely passive. And what I've been able to do is acquire a portfolio of five homes where Greg and his companies has, has just brought them to me already built, already renovated, already rented out, already cash flowing. They manage any kind of like future tenant. Things and residents and maintenance and all that stuff and have a portfolio manager that helps me with the ANACs, the accumulation to meet my financial plan with all that stuff. And they've done that all by something that we call vertical integration. They do that all in house, all one team, 120 people been written about on the front page of the Wall Street Journal a couple of times. Anyways, what I'm saying is you can trust this guy. He's not just a pretty face. Greg, can you explain the actual thing that we are discussing here? What is, why is the reason that we tell our community, you know, don't be average, don't just wait for interest rates to drop. The time to buy is now,
Gregg Cohen:you know, I think as an investor community, really for the last year, maybe longer, there's been an overwhelming sense of fear. And there's been a lot of things to be fearful about. There's political unrest, right? There's this year, it's the election. We don't know how that's going to go down. But interest rates have really caused a lot of fear in the minds of investors for a while now. And we understand because interest rates rose at the fastest rate in over 40 years. And the investor community is like, Okay, what do I do about this now? Where do I put my money? But what the average investor does in a period of time when there is fear in the system is they tend to do nothing. Fear leads to inactivity, but What we talk a lot about with our clients at JWB, and we talk a lot about it here on the show is that there is an opportunity to have data and perspective that gives you confidence to take action, even in periods of time where you may be fearful or the common investor may be fearful because of the headlines. So bringing this all back to interest rates, There's a lot of insight and data to share here about what investors do, what smart savvy investors actually do in periods of time where there are high interest rates. But just like John said, the Fed is signaling that they're coming down. This is a special, unique opportunity for you as an investor to take advantage and use a not your average investor perspective to take an advantage of take advantage of the situation and set yourself up financially. And here's what I mean. Most average investors think about it when interest rates are high. And this is probably the headlines that you guys are reading out there too. Interest rates are high. Investing in real estate is the wrong thing to do right now. Who in their right mind would invest in real estate when interest rates are high? But what we have to understand is the relationships between interest rates and demand for housing. And when interest rates go down, John, what happens for demand of housing? It goes up. It goes up. Mortgage application rates go up almost instantly. This leads to more buying demand. And if you hold supply constant and you increase demand, what that does is it increases prices. And so what we've done a lot on the show is to match this data with this perspective and help people take advantage of it and start to buy right now. Because I've been investing for 18 years now in Jacksonville, single family rental properties, right? We, it has been my bread and butter, but over the last 18 years, there hasn't been a unique opportunity where interest rates are high. And the Fed has said they're coming down. This is the first time that most investors are ever in this spot. And most investors are just flat out. Yeah. They're going to sit on the sidelines. They're going to wait until the headlines say, this is the time to buy because interest rates are low. And by that time, prices will have already risen and they would have missed out on tens of thousands of dollars of opportunity they could have had in their pocket. The ACEs approach here could be started today for folks buying while interest rates are high. And then what I hope we can get into today, since we have John here is to talk through the mechanics of refinancing later on after you have taken advantage and, and have increased your wealth through this equity accumulations.
Pablo Gonzalez:I love it, man. John, is this, you mentioned perfect storm a little while ago. Is this what you mean by the perfect storm thing? Can you go a little deeper into what you're saying?
John Seybert:It is, it is right now, the Fed. Controls, PPI, and CPI, Producer Price Index Report, Consumer Price Index Report. And the CPI is made up, 30 percent of the CPI number is made up on rent. And you have Owner's Equivalent Rent, OER. Okay? Owner's Equivalent Rent is a number that the Fed thinks what the rent should be. And the rents received are actually lower than that number. They haven't caught up yet. So rents are going to go up. And they're going to catch up, catch up to that OER number that the Fed uses. And that's going to take a while. So for, as an investor, as an investor, you know that rents are going to go up. And you guys see it in your contracts, I see it now, when you rent these places out for two and three years at a time, your one's X, your two is X, and your three, X plus. So, You got are ahead of the game because you see that happening, you know, you're going to meet that. Oh, we are numbered. It's going to take on. That's why the inflation has gone from 9
Pablo Gonzalez:to 3%.
John Seybert:And to get to 2%. This is what they call the sticky mile. And until that number gets the OER number, the Ranked Receive gets up to that number, you're not going to get the 2%. And it's going to take a while. So that's where prices are going to stay steady, probably increase a little bit and rates are coming down. So the perfect storm is, as Greg said, is now.
Pablo Gonzalez:So we're in the sticky mile right now. Sticky mile.
Gregg Cohen:Yeah, I absolutely agree. As far as. How hard it's going to be to go from 3 percent to 2 percent inflation, which is the mandate for the Fed. And the other thing to take from what the Fed is saying, what Jerome Powell is saying is. We are prepared to lower interest rates, meaning we are prepared to lower the Fed funds rate, which has an indirect relationship on interest rates. He's prepared to do that before we get to 2%. So while it is going to be sticky, it's going to be some time before as an economy, we get to that 2 percent mandate for what the inflation reading is. The Fed has already said, we're not going to wait until we get there to start lowering our rates. And that's really important because that's why I applaud all of you for being here today because this information is actionable today. When the Fed signals something like they are doing, just like John just said, it already starts to get baked into interest rates throughout the economy. It's not when the Fed does it, it's when the Fed says they are going to do it. And so that's why within our investor community here at JWB, we've gotten really loud about this over the last month or two, because this is that unique opportunity. And the longer you wait, the less of an opportunity you have. Because again, you know, interest rates going down will have a sizable effect on investor demand, buying demand and prices going up.
Pablo Gonzalez:GC, you've done a little bit of, if I'm recalling recent shows, you've done some research on this idea of like the average amount of increase. Can you put some stats around like.
Gregg Cohen:Absolutely. So I went back to the data and I went and I looked at times when interest rates dropped more than 1 percent in a calendar year. And I went and I looked at what did home price appreciation do in the following 12 months after that? And guess what? Home price appreciation on average was over 5 percent in the following year. After interest rates dropped at least 1%. And it happened 5 out of 6 times. It's only happened 6 times since the data was presented. I think it was the last 60 years is how far this goes back. So it doesn't happen all that often. But 5 out of the 6 times home values went up substantially. The one time it didn't happen was the Great Recession. Okay. The one time it happened that, home values did not go up was the great recession, but we all have to understand the great recession was an anomaly. It is not typically how things work. So five out of six times. This has shown that interest rates going down lead to a higher than average home price appreciation in the following 12 months. And that's our thesis here.
Pablo Gonzalez:There you go. So not only, not only is the sky not falling, but we are looking forward to a a period of prosperity for anybody that's in this asset class ahead of time. And that's kind of contrary to what people believe. I know that we do a quarterly investor call here on the Natural Average Invest show. We got it coming up in a couple of weeks. It's our most attended show. And we're always kind of like painting what it looks like today, what the headlines are saying and what we think is actually going to happen. And we've been preparing for that hard. So like I, anybody that's new to here, we, and if you can't make it every Tuesday, In a couple of weeks on Tuesday, I promise you, you won't be disappointed. When Greg shows this thing, but to that point. If you read the headlines around real estate, around reduced demand, around reduced transactions, you think the sky is falling around real estate and you need this idea of data plus perspective. You need not just people that can look at You know, today's snapshot, but two folks like the two of you who've been doing this for 15, 17, 18. How long have you been the 40 40 years? You're the statement around here. Greg's only been doing a 17 years. I've only been doing a five. But that being said, right, that's why we talk about. Data plus perspective. So at the end of the day, the key thing here to understand is there's an opportunity to be made. And then, you know, if you can be comfortable with the process and the product of, of how to do it easy peasy, right? So that's, that's, that's why John's here. John,
John Seybert:let me, let me add something to what Greg was saying about the five out of six times. I say it's five out of five, because that one time in 2008 when prices did go down, that was an That will never happen again. And that was all because of One blown product that was on the market and we sold it. Cause that's what the investors gave us when an investor was buying houses with zero money out of pocket with no income documentation. So a hundred percent financing, no income documentation and a six 20 credit score, easy to walk away. They were called ninja loans back in the day, right? No, no, no income, no asset. So these guys would buy a house. I had guys buying a whole street and hope my whole block for 120, 000 per house,
Gregg Cohen:right?
John Seybert:Flip it for 150, six months later, that guy flips it. And the third guy was holding the bag, the music stopped, there was no chair to sit down in, and that's when everything crashed.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah.
John Seybert:Just because of the loan product that had nothing else to do with it. Nobody had any skin in the game, so it's easier to walk away. That's not happening
Gregg Cohen:again. We talk about it. Real estate and the lending environment really caused the Great Recession. That caused that recession. And that's why real estate took the brunt of that recession. Every other recession that we're talking about, real estate, didn't cause those other recessions and real estate did quite well, even though the economy was in a recession. So, so yeah, so it's, that's a really good point to, to point out in reality, the way that you and I both look at this as in. Normal times when interest rates go down home prices go up. It's not even a question. Yep.
Pablo Gonzalez:Love it So let's talk about that process, right? Like I when I hear when I hear, cash out refi These days as the host of this show i've become a little bit more familiar with it, but i've never been through it Right. So like it sounds daunting. It sounds like a like a tough thing to do. It may even sound expensive, right? So
John Seybert:it's no different than getting out a loan for a purchase. Okay. It really is. It's all about the equity in your house. Talk us through it. How does it go? So, you know, you come to me, for example, the guys that people I worked with in 2017 and 18 bought a house for 120 values now 250. Make application do an appraisal on the property try to keep the loan to value around 75%. That's a sweet spot for interest rates. If we can go lower than that, even better. And they pull their cash out. It's no different than doing a purchase loan. So it's the same thing, same documentation nothing different. Got it. Simple.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah,
John Seybert:really simple. Personally, I've used it. I bought a house in one of my rental properties. I have a couple, I bought one in 2002, I think it was for 160,000. And it's a rental property for that. All that time I never lived there. And in 2015 when I moved my comp, corporate, corporate office from a rental that I was renting to buying a building. Mm-Hmm, I looked at that house, I'm like. I think it's worth 300,
Pablo Gonzalez:000.
John Seybert:I only owe 120. The cash out refinance pulled out 80, 000 and bought my office building. I'm sitting in now. So use that equity to leverage it to buy something else. No brainer.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah.
John Seybert:So that's what I encourage people to look at their portfolios and you know, give us a call. We've got valuation tools. We can tell you what we think it's worth. And these tools are pretty, pretty accurate. So do that quite often.
Pablo Gonzalez:I mean, we see people in our community doing it all the time, right? Like I think, I think the first time I noticed that I was like, wait a minute. So you're telling me that these investments have their own investment babies because it's no, it's no more real like cash out of your pocket, right? Like you're not this, what you were describing is essentially buying a property that I dunno, five, 10 years later, all of a sudden with the same amount that you had put into that original property and a little bit You now have three properties and I remember the first guy that kind of like brought it to life in our community. It's the accumulation. It's the A and aces. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the accumulation piece, right? Or there you go. Lee Bishop, RMVP of the community says it. Hervé Francois, we call, we call it the Hervé cause, cause he brought that to light. And it's one of those things that as a, as a new real estate investor, Like I have been, I feel like I can't call myself a new real estate investor. I really think I'm legit now that I have five properties. Right. But like, I remember being a new real estate investor and talking to new real estate investors. It's, you talk about, you know, the ROI of a property and like these deals and like what you're putting your money into. It's really hard to quantify the idea that in real estate, it gets better with time. And part of that getting better with time that'll never show up on a deal sheet is the idea that, and some, at some point in time, your one property is going to turn into two, three properties. And it's really good, man. GC, what is your experience with that stuff, man?
Gregg Cohen:You know, so We are so blessed to serve over 1600 clients. And after doing this for 18 years, we report on all the success that our clients have had. This is available for every client. You get your, your client ROI report at JWB, and you get to see for all five of these profit centers, you know, just how much wealth has been accumulated. So what we know is that two JWB clients have made over 2 million in revenue. Just in their JWB investments, right? We have over 160 JWB clients that have made over a half a million dollars just in these investments. And a lot of them do what you did with your investment property where they're like, they look at the report one of these days. And after not looking at it for a few years and they're like, Holy cow, I got like 150 grand equity right here. Right. You know, so that's what I love so much about so much about this asset class. But you know, the takeaway as I'm listening to both of you is. Many people don't realize that this asset class is so flexible. It's so beautiful because we have such strong lending partners and because our country And it is built on lending to real estate. We have these incredible options here in the United States that you just don't get when you go to other countries, that you can start with a portfolio of one. And within a few years, you can build it up to five, just like we've all witnessed you do.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah.
Gregg Cohen:Right. And your next progression is going to be like Irving. Babies, baby. Right. So, you know, when we talk about how do you build a better retirement account? through rental property investing and we say, Oh, well, you know, your goals might dictate that you need five rental properties or 10 or 15. Many people are like, how can I possibly get the money to invest and put a down payment on 10 houses? How is that even possible? And they start to Create excuses as to why they'll never be Pablo, or they'll never be John, or they'll never be Lee Bishop, or any of our friends in the community here. But in reality, the successful investors who are a part of this, if you're a part of a team that can walk you through this, what happens is you get started with one. You get to that three level. And then after a few years, you go and you talk to John. We set you up on a phone call with John. We say, listen, let's talk about doing a cash out refinance and all of a sudden now you're at five properties and maybe a year or two later we do the same thing and we look at it and you know maybe now you're up to seven and so it builds on itself because of the beautiful financing that we have in this country and because of the partners that we have and that's really how you can become one of those two million dollar clients for JWB over the next 10 years. Right. And that's how you build a better retirement account. So these are just real world examples. And the beautiful thing about this is you've got all of this success and experience in this room for you. And it makes this really daunting process of like, how am I going to build for retirement or how am I going to invest in real estate or how am I going to build a portfolio? And it becomes. easy, it becomes accessible. And that's what drives me is making this asset class easy and accessible for everyday people.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah. Speaking of great experience in the room, thanks to our community showing up to this webinar. Leslie Wilson is putting in the chat here. We call her the, the Maven from the mountains of Colorado. Um, yeah. She's saying often that accumulated equity is called debt equity, right? Like that equity that you build in your house is called debt equity because it's not working for you earning more money. This is why it's good practice not to let it build up too high as your house will appreciate the same, whether or not you have a mortgage on it or not. Right. So not just in this room, in the chat room right now, if you are a friend of John's, that's like curious about this stuff. There's a ton of like inherent knowledge of people that have been doing this for a long time and really know what they're doing.
Gregg Cohen:And just in that statement there. There is so much insight and knowledge just in that statement right there. We, we probably won't have enough time to go into depth on that, but if you want to talk to somebody who's super successful and understands the power of leveraging real estate responsibly to accomplish your goals, talk to the Maven there, talk to Leslie, because that right there is gold.
Pablo Gonzalez:Speaking of leveraging it responsibly right now, we're talking about cash out refis as like the move to buy now at a low price lock in a lock in that appreciation, that equity that's going to grow when the rates come down. And then be able to have the low interest rate, increased cashflow, right? The, the C and aces as it goes on, I have, I've had, before we get into the actual product itself, John, because I know you're excited to talk about it. It sounds really, it's not like when you guys started nerding out about it before the show, I was like, Oh, okay. I need to catch up to this. Anything as far as if you're, This idea of cash out refinancing to pull out cash out of your home. Sometimes people look down about that, about the reggie seek, any kind of like do's and don'ts of like how to think about that.
Gregg Cohen:Absolutely. Leverage or using debt is a tool. It can be used for a ton of good, or it can be used for a ton of bad. That's why you need to surround yourself with people who are experts in their field, like John and like JWB to make sure you do it responsibly. But here's the thing. It's not that hard to follow time tested proven strategies to do it responsibly. And I always equate it to how banks make decisions, okay? When a bank talks to provides you a loan and they say you need to put 20 percent down for your house, what the bank is also saying is, I'm willing to lend out 80%, right? I'm willing to take the leverage on this up to 80%. And so what John talked about before is, you know, taking leverage out somewhere around 75 percent on a cash out refinance is, is a good rule of thumb. I don't even know if products even go, you can go higher. You can. Okay. So the first thing to look at is what is the loan to value, right? I don't even think there are, I'm, I'm unaware of this, but there certainly aren't as many products for you to go anywhere close to a hundred percent loan to value. Like, like there used to be back in the day. There's one. There's one. Okay. If you're a veteran, if you're a veteran. Right. So, you know, the, the key to look at there and to do it responsibly starts with loan to value, in my opinion, somewhere around 75%, 80 percent is what the banks already do. Right. And, and so that's a conservative, a conservative note there. I mean, what, what would you add there? I agree, right? Nothing else. Yeah Simple.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah. Got it. So seven 80%. I guess the question I was saying is like,
Gregg Cohen:explain what 80% is like.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah. well, the question that I was asking is like, what I was trying to get you to say is don't go out and buy a television or a car with this money
Gregg Cohen:Gotcha.
Pablo Gonzalez:What do you do with that? The next Yeah. Don't go to Vegas. Yeah, yeah. Don't go to, don't go to Vegas with it. And the, in the classes that I teach on behalf of the, not your average investor, show inside other, communities. This idea of. You know, for it to really understand if this is the first time being exposed to it, yes, that is ghost equity. You can use that money for whatever you want when you cash out refi. The key is, and the reason why so many people have had so much success. We have these millionaires that have been made within our community is that if you can, Take out money at 5 percent and invest it in 10%, then you're making money on that money, right? So, like, it doesn't have to be those numbers. But as long as you are making a better return on money that you are, that you're borrowing at a certain cost, it's what we call financial engineering. And that is how to use debt intelligently. Don't use debt to, like, buy stuff that isn't going to pay off later on. That's what Raj meant.
John Seybert:And keep in mind, these are long term holds. This is not something that's going to happen in three years. This is a long term hold. And you've got somebody else paying your mortgage payment for you. I mean, that's the way I looked at it when I started investing probably 25 years ago. I just thought of it. Okay. Cashflow wasn't that important to me at the time.
Pablo Gonzalez:Sure.
John Seybert:Made a good living so I didn't have to worry about that. I wanted to be neutral. I don't want to have to write a check every month.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah.
John Seybert:But as long as I had somebody else making that payment for me, and over time, as I said earlier, that house went from 160 to 300. Use the equity, buy something else. The building I bought. 200 is not worth 400. So, you know, all these things just multiply.
Gregg Cohen:It became very apparent to me early on. I started to invest at age 23, and I was not investing for cashflow to change my life at that time. I didn't need much. I didn't have a wife and kids at that time, right? Like, 100 or 200 a month in cashflow didn't, didn't mean anything to me. I was, I was invested in building my business at that point anyway. So I wasn't even spending money, but what I wanted to do was to build an army of income producing assets because I knew at some point down the line, whether that is 10 years, 15 years, 20 years down the line, when I hopefully had a wife and kids as a blessed to have now that I would have options of what I needed to do with, or what I could do with my time. So, This goal for all of us, no matter what age group you're in right now, don't invest to change your life tomorrow, right? That's the trap that we fall into as Americans. Invest, build up assets that you have that grow for all five profit centers like you're talking about. And then over time, you will control your time. You will control your activities and you'll have options. But it doesn't start unless you accumulate those assets. That's why I love ACES so much. The first is accumulation. And that's where the real wealth becomes apparent. Yeah.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah. And by the way, if you want to take that step, right? Like the, the obvious first step is to go to chat with jwb. com and you can schedule a time there and talk to Greg's team. They'll work with John as well and guide you through the whole process. Make it totally passive. If you just want to shoot an email, go to info at jwbcompanies. com and you can get started on that process. But that's the, the main thing is just like, get that conversation started right now. And have one of the experts here at JWB start kind of guiding you through that process because it takes a little while for you to get comfortable with it and JWB to make sure that they're putting you in the right place. John, I know that you love talking about the product and what it looks like right now. Tell me about it, man.
John Seybert:So the product we're talking about is a debt service product, DSCR, debt service coverage ratio. Great product. I was telling you Greg earlier this morning that the difference in price between a Fannie Mae conventional Fannie Mae loan, which is the normal. Avenue that people use compared to the debt service product. It's like 120 difference. So it's 120 more To use a debt service product and it is Fannie Mae. So not a lot.
Pablo Gonzalez:121 time.
John Seybert:120.$120 cost. Yeah. One time. Totally. Yeah. But here's the difference. The debt service loan product, I don't ask for tax returns. I don't ask for pay stubs.
Pablo Gonzalez:Hmm.
John Seybert:I don't care if you have a job or not. We don't even list a job on the loan application. Okay? It's all about assets. What do you have for the down payment piece? Your credit, and the property itself that you're purchasing. So those three characteristics are what really? What drive the loan. The debt service ratio like to see it at 1 percent or higher. That's the best bucket. Actually, the best bucket is 1. 35 or higher bucket in an interest rate is the best pick this best spot to be. So what I mean by the ratio is let's assume that your payment, your PITI principal interest taxes and insurance, let's assume that's a thousand dollars a month. We want the rent to be at least a thousand. Um, if the rent is 1500, you're going to fall in the bucket of 1. 35 or higher, which means your interest rate gets a little bit better. It's not exponentially better, but it is better. So it's about 30 basis points in cost difference.
Pablo Gonzalez:Over 10, that's a lot of money.
John Seybert:It adds up.
Pablo Gonzalez:So,
John Seybert:The product's a great product. It's a, what we call a non QM product. So it's a non agency product, agency being Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac. So these are investors, I think the investors that we work with large institutional banks, credit suites, people like that. and it's, it's just a great product. It's easier for the consumer. My processor, Harley Anderson, will say it's harder for him because they scrutinize everything else because there's nothing else to scrutinize. There's no tax return or pay stuff to look at. So they dig everywhere else. For the consumer, in my opinion, it's an easier product and easier to get through.
Gregg Cohen:Let me just give a little bit of perspective on this because debt service coverage ratio products. Still, we'll call it still relatively new. They haven't been around for decades and decades, right?
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah,
Gregg Cohen:so it's still relatively new But they're in all my experience I have never seen the DSCR product have rates and terms that are almost identical to Fannie Mae products. I have never seen it. I flat out don't even understand why the rates are so low. There's a backend investor somewhere out there who is having demand for this. And so I don't, this is like a, A special opportunity for a DSCR product. And it's, I don't know how long it's going to last. I hope rates come down all the time, but what I would expect is Fannie Mae rates. to go back to being much lower and better terms than DSCR. Well, I can, you're right.
John Seybert:I can tell you this, the DSCR product has gotten closer over the last two months. Yeah. It was, there was a delta of about a point. Yeah. For a long time. So why it got down there, I don't know. Obviously, they're making money or they wouldn't be doing
Gregg Cohen:it. Yeah. Well, I think, but then the other thing that I wanted to point out is, you know, we talked about what led to the Great Recession and we talked about how lending products that didn't require tax returns and other things was, was a major driver of the Great Recession. That's not what this product is. What this, what the backend investors have realized is that Lending on cash flowing rental properties is really good business because what the DSCR is, the debt service coverage ratio, like John said, basically if the income from the property covers the expense, the debt on the property, then you have a cash flowing property and it's a good bet, right? It is, it is a sound business model, right? So I wanted to make sure that we pointed that out, that this has, is a relatively new product, but it makes core foundational fundamental sense. and I hope that it continues to go down this. I hope there continues to be more back end investor demand as it gets closer and closer to Fannie because for years now we have used DSCR products internally at JWB for the assets we buy, which we own over 300 properties in our own neighborhoods and same neighborhoods we would put you as a client in. But those rates have been higher for us than what we could have potentially had it for Fannie Mae. Let, let me add to that, Greg.
John Seybert:We have an annual trade show, FAMP, Florida Association of Mortgage Professionals. And it's this Friday in Orlando. And I was looking at the roster of companies that are going to be exhibiting. And there was probably 60, 70 different companies, mortgage, wholesale companies, people that want business from mortgage brokers like myself. And I didn't recognize half of them. I've been doing this for 40 years and I'm like, who are these people? So I started doing some research on some of these names, all non QM lenders. So they're all getting in the game. So you see it more, more of them in the game. The rates are going to drop. I mean, they're going to
Gregg Cohen:compete. Because this back end investor money is looking for safe places to put their money. And investing in U. S. real estate and in mortgages, Is a pretty good bet. People have been doing it for decades and decades and decades. They're not making any more of it. They're not making any more of it. You know, so, so I did want to recognize that this is a unique opportunity there. And then just talking about the ease of use of a DSCR product over, over a NIP, typical Fannie Mae product. You know, listen, the lending process is not fun, and it's certainly not fun even if you go through the DSCR product, but it's a lot more enjoyable than your typical Fannie Mae. Two other
John Seybert:facets that you need to understand with this product, which Fannie Mae doesn't do. Number one, you can have more than 10 finance properties. You can go up to 20. And sometimes you can exceed 20 with an exception. I've done that before. The other thing is they let you close in an LLC. Mmm. Very nice. Fannie Mae won't let you do that. So, most investors that we work with have LLCs set up. Mm hmm. They have their liability corporation set up and, and they like to place it in there for, for liability purposes. Mm hmm. And Fannie Mae doesn't let you do that. No. So, that might change someday. I hope not. But
Gregg Cohen:yeah. And why don't you tell them the, the interest rates that you're able to get with the incentives of J. D. So we'll go
John Seybert:back to yesterday because things changed this morning with the, with the 10 year treasury going below 4%. So yesterday I priced out a loan. Let's assume, I think the purchase price was 250 252, zero one seven or whatever. And the, and the loan amount was 65 percent of that. So the person was putting 35 percent down. The 2 percent that you're offering is 2 percent of the purchase price. So in this case would be 5, 000. That 5, 000 would get the ball or a rate of 5. 625. If the ball were kicked in an additional, this is yesterday, an additional 1. 7 percent of the loan amount, They would get the five and a quarter today. They kick in 1. 44%. That much movement in 24 hours. Wow. That's a lot of movement. Yeah. So it's I suspect that we'll be in the high fours here soon. I hope you're right. With these buydowns. With these buydowns. All right.
Pablo Gonzalez:Explain that to the Yeah. Or am I asking for a friend? Right? I obviously know what this is about.
Gregg Cohen:So, there's a whole lot of financial engineering that JWB and John's team do before we present the portfolio for our JWB clients. So what John's talking about is the nitty gritty details that get you there. At the end of the day, what you're going to see on your pro formas for JWB is a five and a quarter percent expectation of what your interest rate should be. Right. That's going to include some incentives from on the JWB side. So we actually pay to buy down your rate a little bit. And then it also includes a buy down on the buyer side as well, but all of these costs are included in the pro forma. So just keep in mind, we're talking about roughly a five and a quarter percent interest rate when it's all said and done. today, right? So while the rest of the world is paying interest rates at six and a half percent, six, seven percent, right? You can make this decision to add to your portfolio today, work with John and get a five and a quarter percent interest rate, which what that equates to for your return on investment for your JWB rental property is Somewhere around a 10 percent return. Right. So you're able to stack assets. You're able to follow ACEs here, accumulate and get interest rates that you probably weren't expecting are available today. Because of working with JWB and John and the DSCR product, and you can start to accumulate now, and then think about what happens when the rest of the economy starts to work, as interest rates come down for everybody else. And as home values go up because of that, well now, you locked in today at a really good interest rate, one that you were probably hoping you could get tomorrow, and then you've set yourself up to increase your accumulation of equity as home values go up over the following years.
John Seybert:You know, we changed the model. It was 25 percent down for the longest time with rates at six and six and a half and seven percent. We had to change it to 35 percent down to get that cash flow neutral position. We're almost getting to the point where we can go back to 25 percent
Pablo Gonzalez:down. That's cool. We're close. It'd be great. We're close.
John Seybert:So if the rates come down just a little bit more, we'd probably scale that back. And get your cashflow neutral at least or positive.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah. So if you're following at home, like me, the two things that I heard in this last you know, I'm sure that there's more experienced people than I, that were able to like, really, really conceptualize those numbers. What I was able to conceptualize right now on that, on all that clarification is twofold. One, we started this call talking about how there's so much pain and having high interest rates today that people are waiting. And you should buy today to refinance tomorrow. What I just heard from you guys is that even buying today, that pain is actually lower than most people expect, right? You're actually buying at a lower interest rate than you thought today based on these products. And two, what you said earlier, that was like, Oh yeah, just like getting a, just like getting a regular loan. And I was like, Oh man, getting a loan is a pain in the butt. It's actually easier than getting a regular loan because you're using this DSCR product. It's, it's, it's less about your personal, you know, like, income, I guess, and more about like the, the, the property itself that is, that contains the value for the lender.
John Seybert:You know, I, I find most investors, I shouldn't say most, a large percentage of them are self employed.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah. That's what I was thinking. And when
John Seybert:they come to me and I, first question I ask, What do you do for a living? What's your tax returns say? You know, let me look at them. And most notably, they all say, I write everything off. Of course, you're supposed to. And that's where the DSCR comes in. I don't care. I don't care how much money you make. I don't even put a job. I had a client yesterday and said a former client of yours who's buying another one.
Pablo Gonzalez:And he
John Seybert:said, uh, how come I don't have to put a job on the application? I go, we don't care if you have a job. It doesn't matter. It's credit score, asset, and the property. So it really is pretty simple. Awesome. And a lot of these people, these investors who Leslie Wilson with her right now. Yeah. Hi, Leslie. Um, you know, I said, I don't care how much your rental income you make. It doesn't matter.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah.
John Seybert:I don't care.
Pablo Gonzalez:That's great.
John Seybert:Yeah. So,
Pablo Gonzalez:so cliff notes of the conversation. We've got some great questions right now. We're going to dive into the Q and a side of it. Cliff notes of the conversation is essentially as interest rates start to drop, which they are doing as we speak right now, prices are going to go up. Therefore the smart investor move isn't to wait until they drop further and lock in later cashflow. It's a lock in the low price today with lower rates than you expected we're going to be. And then later on, after this price increase happens, you can refinance even further down with a simpler product. That costs, you said about five grand to do and depends on the loan amount factor in probably two and a half percent. Yeah. Two and a half percent. So a lower cost than most closing costs when you're, when you're buying a new property and then you are locking in a higher cashflow after the fact. And if you are looking to do all that stuff, the logical next move is go to chat with JWB. com. You can pick out a time to talk to the JWB team. We'll package all this together, make it really, really easy for you to acquire, work with John and then own this thing for the longterm. Cause the experiences was going to keep you in there. So chat with JWB. com or shoot a, an email to info at JWB companies. com. And GC, you had something to say here.
Gregg Cohen:Well, I did want to talk about one cool thing here. Everything you just mentioned is a hundred percent accurate, right? There is value to buying while interest rates are high, but you can lock in your purchase price at a low point. And you can refinance later and you're going to make money on that trade, meaning the equity that will be gained by prices going up is going to be more than what you may have to spend. as you refinance. But here's the other thing. With John's product that we're talking about here and getting in at maybe roughly a five and a quarter percent interest rate, you may not need to refinance. You may just get both benefits here of locking in a great interest rate today, locking it in as home prices go up over the following year because interest rates come down for everybody else. And when those interest rates come down, I don't know if you're ever going to get close, you know, below five and a quarter. For most people, you got to drop at
John Seybert:least a point and a half to make it worth your refinance. So if you're a five and a quarter, you're going to have to see three and three quarters. Yeah. Is that going to happen? Maybe? I don't know. I don't know if it's on there
Gregg Cohen:again. So this bar none, it makes sense if you buy and then you refinance later on that trade, you're going to make money on that. But I think there's a really high likelihood that you might not decide to refinance later on. And this is just kind of a double win there.
Pablo Gonzalez:Just a goodbye today. All right, let's do a little rapid fire Q& A. The first one is from the MVP of our community. May have heard of him, Lee Bishop. He says John, what's the credit score you're looking for to qualify for the loan? A lot of lenders I work with are looking for 700 or better.
John Seybert:680. Okay. 680. And then loan to value, we'll have it, we'll play a part in that to higher the loan to value, the higher the credit score, but we can do it 680.
Pablo Gonzalez:Cool. That's rapid fire right there. Ring master drew Barnhill is asking since mortgage rates are based on the 10 year T bond. Can you explain why that spread above this rate change for mortgage rates? For instance, rates go from anywhere from 1. 5 to 2. 5 percent above that T bond rate. Anybody want to take that? Yeah, I could take that.
Gregg Cohen:So historically that's, that spread has been about 1. 7 percent. What we're talking about is you look at the 10 year treasury and then you look at what average interest rates are. There's about 1. 7 percent of a spread there. And that's really how the mortgage market works. Investors look at investing in 10 year treasuries or they look at putting their money into mortgage backed securities. And over time, that's been about 1. 7 percent more that they would require in a return to to make that decision. But over the last few years, it's been a lot more than 1.
Pablo Gonzalez:7%,
Gregg Cohen:because investor demand has not been as high. For a number of reasons. So it's been up to, you know, 2 percent and two and a half percent. And that has compounded the problem of high interest rates for all of us. So, but historically it's 1. 7%. So again, coming back to how much, how timely this information is today and how you should be able to take action on it today. When the Fed is signaling that interest rates are coming down, that creates more demand from back end investors investing in mortgage backed securities that in theory can shrink that spread down from two and a half percent to 1. 7 percent. I don't know if I'm losing anybody here. Ultimately, what this means is that interest rates for us can come down even if the Fed doesn't do anything. And so, historically, you know, it's been 1. 7%. If we could get back there, even if the Fed doesn't change anything, doesn't drop interest rates. our overall interest rates would come down. So there's a lot of potential good things coming down the pike is the, uh, right, is the way to wrap that one up.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah. Cool. Patriot of the first family of the natural investor show. Ken Malin is asking, is a cash out refi, a total restructuring of your original mortgage, or can you take it out as a second mortgage?
John Seybert:Cash out. Refinance is a new mortgage. So you're paying off the current loan that you have. So depending on what your rate is currently, I mean, you got a 3. 5 percent rate. I wouldn't probably refinance unless you're pulling cash out to invest in another house, you know, you have to look at the numbers and see if it makes sense, but,
Pablo Gonzalez:Makes sense. So not a, not a restructuring of your mortgage, a new mortgage, pay off the old mortgage. It gives you a new loan. All right. Got it. Billy green says John does, oh, does John and his company provide services for these relatively new home equity agreement loans? I'm intrigued by this service, but need to better understand potential costs.
John Seybert:Right. That's a heel lock. Okay. Acronym, home entry line of credit. Okay. We do do them. We do them. totally honest, I think there's some banks out there in the community that do it better than we do.
Pablo Gonzalez:Okay.
John Seybert:We're a mortgage broker, so we have different, different outlets, but I've seen some local banks in Orlando, where we're located, Altamont Springs get pretty competitive.
Pablo Gonzalez:Cool. Good reason to reach out to you and just kind of talk through it.
John Seybert:I had one last week where the gentleman Came to me and he started talking to me about it. And I just told him what the rate was. It was fifth thirds at 6%. I'm like on a home equity line. He goes, yeah, I go take it, do it.
Gregg Cohen:Cool. I want to, I wanted to ask one more question because what the mountain man might be talking about are these loans that basically. Take a piece of the appreciation, the value gain over time, you know, and I'm not so familiar with it. I was wondering if you had any, any insight into that? No. No? It's a home equity loan. Yeah. So yeah, the mountain man's talking about that. Yeah. So, there's new loan products that are out there now that, you know, You know, basically they know that real estate goes up. They know aces. These lenders know aces. And what they're willing to do is to come down on their rates in terms better rates in terms in the, in the short run for the borrower. But what the borrower has to give up is long term growth in the asset. Oh, I wasn't aware of that. Yeah. So it's something new out there. Mountain Man, I don't know a whole bunch about it. I don't know if any of our clients have actually used one of those products. To me, it, it, Kind of, you know, you understand the value of holding longterm. So, and if the numbers worked where you can be cashflow positive and, you know, benefit from all five profit centers, which is the only loans we're going to put you in here at JWB and with John. I think it's a lot to give up later on especially in an environment where we expect interest rates to come down in the, in the future. So that'd be my slightly uneducated take on it. But certainly worthwhile of, more education on it, I would say.
Pablo Gonzalez:Got it. Cool. Very interesting. So all the way from France. Anonymous attendee is asking a question with the debt service product, does it have a number of loans to one person limit? And is it available to LLCs? You answered this earlier, right?
John Seybert:20.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah. 20 per person. 20
John Seybert:per person. Um, the LLC question, it's not lent to the LLC. You can title invest the property in an LLC, the loans in your personal name, you're responsible for it. It's your credit. It's your, you're making a payment. The LLC is not making a payment. Makes sense.
Pablo Gonzalez:Got it. Got it. And congratulations for the Olympics, Anonymous. Lee Bishop, MVP send us away here with his final question. The Fed did not drop the interest rates this time. John, how long does it really take from the Fed dropping the rate to it rolling out to the banks? I hear as long as nine months for a bank to push the savings out to the customer. Is this correct?
John Seybert:To a bank, I don't know. To a mortgage company, it's already happened. So the fact that they didn't drop the rate at their last meeting, was it yesterday, the day before, whatever it was, it's what's what they said. that makes everything in motion. So they made the comment that they're probably going to drop in September at the next Fed meeting. That's all that needed to be done. You know, as you see, the 10 year treasury was 4. 1 yesterday and today it's 3. 98. So it's falling. And as I told you, The cost to the consumers coming down, coming down. So it's, it's all good.
Gregg Cohen:Well, you got a root for the fed 10 year treasury to go down the yield on the 10 year treasury to go down. That is a harbinger for what our long term interest rates are going to do. And it's, it's moving in a good direction for us. Absolutely.
Pablo Gonzalez:Love it. Love it. I love the picture of. It feels like a really complete picture of this opportunity, right? Like it is kind of like you said, it's the perfect storm of prices are going to go up. So get in now, rates are dropping and you have flexibility with that later on. Also right now, the rate's pretty attractive based on what's happening. And oh, by the way, Limited time here, right? Because we're not waiting those nine months for the fed to draw for the banks to pursue. It's as soon as the market starts believing it's going to happen. And it sure as hell is telling us that they're believing it's going to happen, right? So the opportunity right now to be greedy when people are fearful, people are not going to be fearful for very long. So the opportunities to act. Now go to chat with JWB. com. Pick a time to talk to Greg's team, work with John on this stuff. Make it really, really easy. Like I, and so many other folks that joined this call today have if not just shoot an email to info at jwbcompanies. com gentlemen, this was a pleasure. I really enjoyed this, man. I listen, I haven't said this yet today on the call, but my favorite story about John is that I recently picked up a, a duplex in January And I was telling Greg, Hey, I'm picking this thing up. This is what they quoted me. He's like, Oh, I think you should talk to my buddy. John got on the phone with John guy. Saved me 0. 8 percent on my mortgage right off the bat. So, I will forever, I will forever, at least for the next 30 years, I'm going to start your name, John. Um, and I'm really, really grateful for that. I appreciate you driving all the way from Orlando to make the show, man. It really added
John Seybert:to the opportunity. Yeah.
Pablo Gonzalez:Thanks for being here, man.
John Seybert:I'll leave it at this. Your deal was a special deal.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah.
John Seybert:not just because of you, but you don't say that to everybody. I'm in the, uh, the end of my career. I've been doing it for 40 years, 64 years old. And my attitude is I'm hitting singles at home runs. You know, the guy who's closing three loans a month, he's got to hit a double on a home run or he's not going to be able to live. Sure. I'm hitting singles and the people that work with me at JWB know that because I'm very competitive. I think I'm as competitive as anybody, if not better. So that's my motto. It's singles.
Gregg Cohen:Everything you do is focused on client success. Period. And a lot of what you talk about with you hitting singles right there, right, ultimately what that does is, number one, it sets everybody up for a better return on investment, but more importantly than that, it's the type of relationship that they get to have with you. Right. Pablo and you have that relationship, but it starts with the JWB relationship because you've serviced. I don't know how many hundreds of our clients on loans. More than a thousand thousand. Right. Yeah. When you, when you're an investor, when you're a new investor and it's scary to get a loan, you don't want to just be treated as a number. And when you get to work with JWB and with John's team, you know, the strength is partnership for over a decade now. And thousands of loans is what. is what hopefully makes you feel more secure about maybe your very first investor purchase. So we've appreciated, man. It's been one of the best relationships that we've had is our special partnership with you, man. Thanks for being here in the hot seat.
Pablo Gonzalez:Yeah. John, these signals are hitting or just putting people on base, man, pushing and pushing them through. I, I feel lucky to know you. I I really appreciate you coming. This was a great show. Really appreciate the community showing up. Thanks for promoting this. Thanks for bringing your friends to this thing. Thanks to our folks that show up on Tuesdays, every Tuesday. It's, it's a big ass to get people to take an hour in the middle of their day. As you can tell people do it and it makes this a lot better because it adds a lot to the whole experience. And we like to end our show with one little piece of advice. Every single time. Do you see what is that?
Gregg Cohen:Don't be average. See you on Tuesday.